Once again we are ending with no site with cross references!
Let’s be scientific in our method @Vidyut even in communicating…!
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I am afraid such long guessing without providing any evidence would misguide freshers about the purpose of this STEM Chat .
Can we base on scientific references and on observational evidences that just spouting ones belief system? @Vidyut Look at how @bivasnag and others including school Cubists offerring photo/ video evidences and citations with cross references!
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I think I don’t have what it takes to be scientific enough for you. But I hear your distress over whatever unscientific blasphemy I am doing and have no wish to upset you. I am struggling to understand what cross references I can provide for “the earthworms stage mass escapes and land up on my kitchen floor before it rains - but not each time”
Will return when I figure it out.
Bye.
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I don’t think paper diet is good for reproduction and growth. The method is meant to control and poke our imagination about what is there in the wet paper that makes them survive.
I think if @Vidyut if you read the article sent by me on effect of pressure on c elegans you can easily relate it with your arguments it states that C. elegans exhibits a universal elastic response dominated by the mechanics of pressurized internal organs.
It also states worm expands under negative applied pressure as well also it provides evidences that the motility do change due to pressure effects we just have to read this paper and try to relate it with the case of earthworm and then only we can know the scientific reason earthworm coming out from bins…
Curiosity is the key, but unless and until we relate with what we have we can’t find the thrill in that curiosity after sometime*
I have started reading the paper it would be good if @Vidyut you also read and then we try to relate it giving proper explanation… It is possible may be we can chalk out something new. 
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We can design an experiment for this if not studied already (some literature survey todo).
If there a change in the behavior of:
- earthworms in a bin, protected from the rain
- earthworms in a bin, not protected from the rain.
This looks like grounded speculation for me, and if true a case of keen observation leading to a research project.
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It will be really great if we can design such experiment I am in anytime for the experiment… @GN
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I had started reading when the extensive critique happened. It isn’t a simple paper to understand for me, but it does seem to imply changes in the earthworm due to pressure and expansion due to low pressure. Low pressure is something that has been seen as a trigger for earthworms to climb up based on anecdotal evidence (by vermicomposters, not research), so it is possible the two could be related. The urge to go upward is not directly explained, but could be a claustrophobic reaction? If the earthworm is actually bigger because of low pressure, displacing more volume to move around could be a stress that resolves by climbing to the surface?
I would definitely be interested in doing such an experiment @GN. If we are looking for changes due to air pressure, rain is somewhat irrelevant. It will also foul up results because rain will directly cause a reactive upward migration not related to air pressure. Replacing the rain bin with one that is air tight - so that air pressure does not change in it with weather may be more interesting to see if the two earthworms respond differently. Or adding a third bin.
The rain bin may be more interesting as a parallel experiment on humidity. We can separate ambient monsoon weather that causes earthworms to come to the surface into the water and humidity aspects, buy watering one bin directly and watering around or fogging or otherwise raising the humidity around the other bin. It will help us find out whether the earthworms come up to avoid the water or whether they come up because the surface, which is normally dry and hostile is also now suitable for them to occupy. As in whether attraction to a suitable environment or fleeing a hostile environment. Or both…
Perhaps this is better separated to a new thread to prevent disruption to the existing experiment.
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Yes indeed it is not an easy paper to understand that’s why I urged being a second year bsc student I need someone’s help to understand it better so it will be good if we can read and share our views and then build up on this idea @Vidyut
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I am just 12th class pass (that too correspondence, arts), so even less familiar with the terminology, but prima facie it appears that the details of the experiment are not very relevant to ours beyond the finding that the size of the earthworm changes in response to pressure.
They could be relevant if we had someone familiar enough with earthworm physiology to see if the cellular changes could be involved with flight urges or something, but I don’t have the foggiest on that front.
For me, with my current level of knowledge and without going on a massive learning curve, the most useful point is that pressure results in direct changes in the body of a paralyzed earthworm, so there is a possibility that if the earthworm were capable of movement, it would react to those changes in some way.
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No prob we can learn together and you are in the first I know, in India citizen science platform here science is all about questions and cross questions and that’s how we built t
Upon our thinking and henceforth we learn many things mainly from our mistakes… Read the blog of celebrating goof up and the cube wiki I wrote you will get the idea of the approach we should have while learning science it is easy only the temperament and the ability to take points from the questions of other is necessary… @Vidyut
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The point is in articles
as in blogs, it will have
only ones opinion and
not with references to
others articles publish-
ed in peer reviewed
Journals.
Articles with references
cited at the end , can be
counter- checked! Sorry,
I thought this explanation
was highly warranted,
lest there be misunderstanding!
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I understand. For me, life is a lab. Science is everywhere and so are observations!
Research doesn’t cover a LOT of animal behavior. For example, why do herbivores move away from sudden movement in their peripheral vision, while carnivores will usually move toward it? It is such a well established phenomenon that thousands of years of nomads herding their livestock from one place to another have used it reliably. I am not speaking anecdotal blongs by others, I WAS a nomad with horses for seven years and can guarantee all it takes to get a horse ahead of you to take a left - WITHOUT leading, bridle or anything. Is wave your hand behind him to the right or throw a rock if the horse is too far away. it may fail occasionally if the horse is exhausted or knows it is you doing it, but for the most part, even knowing you it is doing it, it will work, because it is a reflex, not a conscious decision.
It is a technique of moving horses called “herding” as opposed to leading with a bridle and leash or riding using a combination of bridle, weight shifts and (for crude riders), pain stimulii like digging in with heels or a riding crop.
EXCEPT: A newborn foal (equine) will kick back with its hindlegs before fleeing very fast and with unpredictable erratic movements unless in the middle of a herd and for the slightest movement, including a loving pat or another horse sniffing. Got countless tiny hooves nailing my thighs and then wasting a lot of time to get my hands on the darlings before I learned not to approach them from behind.
Try the same with a carnivore, chances are high, it will spin around to investigate. This is also reasonably reliable behavior immortalized in the phrase “herding cats” to signify an impossible task (though there is greater variation in responses by carnivores. other factors - height, size, possibly scent etc too).
Good luck finding research to reference these examples, Though every single livestorck rearing website will explain this. You can validate these buy doing them yourself. Takes a while to figure out what kind of movement to do, but it isn’t hard. Simply waving hands will often work. One person can easily guide a herd of dozens like this. I HAVE, as a part of daily routine.
I am making a point here. “Lack of paperwork” cannot negate the lived experience of skilled growers. All the persons I cited have been raising and selling earthworms professionally and giving advice, developing worm bin designs and more for decades.
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Looking for updates on Earthworm cultures and
on the Snail. @Vandana @MeharMathur @Vedikaa@
@madhavkaul… @30112002 @avani08 …
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Especially the Earthworms kept in 2 bottles with
moist tissue paper!! With photos please!
@Vandana @madhavkaul… Eagerly waiting for!
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Imagine if skilled growers add another feather in their cap of documenting, and seeking evidence and building models to explain what they are working on. I am reminded of the time when science began in Europe, all of them were from skilled ‘growers’. The main difference were they were writing, documenting, maintaining dairies, and once in a while presenting their results in a club. Science began as a hobby, but became a reproducible profession only when paper trails were produced.
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Most of the hobby based forums still work like that. There are forums for all kinds of activities, though I’m mostly active on carnivorous plants forums and here. I have found far more useful advice there than in research papers. Not because it is more “proven”, but because of the sheer number of conditions people do things in, which sort of gives ideas for new things to try.
The effect of coffee (black filter coffee, nothing added) on nepenthes plants was one stunning discovery. Began with anecdotal evidence, then people posting before/after pics, then some people trying to do controlled experiments… archives of forums have a wealth of knowledge. Often with photographic “proofs” attached, though rarely formally presented as one person’s findings.
My experiment with growing highlanders in lowland conditions is literally standing on the shoulders of these giants. Or it would be unthinkable to grow rare, slow growing species that are NOTORIOUS for declining and dying in hot weather a full 20C above their normal temperatures.
It is powerful knowledge, but comes in its own format. Like it would not make sense to expect a researcher to present complex scientific findings in more understandable language (the paper on the effect of pressure on cells being a prime example) that actual growers can use, it becomes futile to expect day to day discussions on growing conditions to be expressed as formal findings.
I simply file it all under “anecdotal evidence” and verify/disprove what seems relevant to my requirements.
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I use another stock example: the difference between a sparrow and a crow. Make a minor hand gesture, the sparrow will fly instantly. While the crow will duck into an alert position, make an assessment of the situation before taking off.
However, unless this is considered as a reproducible phenomena, science cannot be built on such observations, however correct they are. These are keen observations, which should be turned into a experimental design leading to a publication reporting how the experiment can be reproduced. Each reproduced experiment shows how the phenomena can be reproduced. Reproducing a phenomena based on a demonstrable process by anyone, is considered an evidence in science.
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Agreed, but till that is done, there is no reference to provide. We’d be creating references for others to cite.
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Let us document, and make the process of documentation easy by the use of sophisticated ICT tools, such as this platform. This is a platform for documenting the process, conversations, not merely an outcome in the form of a paper. This also makes the process of doing science accessible to those who want to learn STEM.
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